I want to bolt on EVO sliders and you can't change my mind!

[scull20]

I asked if someone has ever bolted the EVO sliders instead of welding them .
This was my question...

You told me that it is a stupid idea and just an ego show.
Please could you motivate it?
Do you think that a weld is more solid than a bolt?

I'm writing in a forum( in the technical area) in order to exchange informations, opinions and, why not, show what I build...is it not the ame of the forum?

English is not my language but I try to avoid mystakes. If something is not so clear please ask me to clarify it, I'll do my best to do better translation.

Sincerly thanks

[emoji482][emoji482][emoji482]

The weld is a more effective means to transfer to force to the frame of the jeep than bolts would be based on their location with respect to the centerline of the leg of slider.

Essentially, as you load the slider (let's say vertically, as though the jeep was coming down on a rock) you are taking this vertical force from the slider rail and transferring it back to the support location (the frame of the jeep)

This vertical force is multiplied by the horizontal distance which it occurs from the support location (length of leg of slider)...creating a moment (aka Torque) at the support location. This moment can be resolved into a force couple (opposing push/pull forces, separated by a distance). The force couple is what you need to resist when you attach the slider to the frame (along with a shear force). That being said, you will decrease the push/pull forces which you are going to have to resist within the force couple by increasing the distance in between the opposing push/pull forces.

In this case the distance from the centerline of the leg of the slider from the top and bottom edge of the foot of the slider is a larger distance than that of the the distance between the centerline of the bolting holes...

Therefore...the bolts will see a larger force in them than the welds when having to resist the same impact force of the jeep coming down vertically on a rock.

Certainly you can design a bolt to resist these forces, but you are also bolting through a thin walled hollow tube-like member (the frame). The forces the bolts will see will be concentrated in shear along the bearing locations of the bolt holes and against the face of the tube against the washers. While I haven't run a number to check the frame member for any localized block shear or wall buckling, it's certainly a higher possibility than if you were to just weld it like its intended.

The welds transfer the force more effectively as described above, simply based on the geometry of the foot of the slider. Not to mention the strength of a continuous fillet weld all around the foot of the slider is going to be far stronger in tension and shear than the bolts in this application.

/end statics and strength of materials

I have a set, I had them welded on, this is the way they were intended to be installed.

 

[Benito]

The weld is a more effective means to transfer to force to the frame of the jeep than bolts would be based on their location with respect to the centerline of the leg of slider.

Essentially, as you load the slider (let's say vertically, as though the jeep was coming down on a rock) you are taking this vertical force from the slider rail and transferring it back to the support location (the frame of the jeep)

This vertical force is multiplied by the horizontal distance which it occurs from the support location (length of leg of slider)...creating a moment (aka Torque) at the support location. This moment can be resolved into a force couple (opposing push/pull forces, separated by a distance). The force couple is what you need to resist when you attach the slider to the frame (along with a shear force). That being said, you will decrease the push/pull forces which you are going to have to resist within the force couple by increasing the distance in between the opposing push/pull forces.

In this case the distance from the centerline of the leg of the slider from the top and bottom edge of the foot of the slider is a larger distance than that of the the distance between the centerline of the bolting holes...

Therefore...the bolts will see a larger force in them than the welds when having to resist the same impact force of the jeep coming down vertically on a rock.

Certainly you can design a bolt to resist these forces, but you are also bolting through a thin walled hollow tube-like member (the frame). The forces the bolts will see will be concentrated in shear along the bearing locations of the bolt holes and against the face of the tube against the washers. While I haven't run a number to check the frame member for any localized block shear or wall buckling, it's certainly a higher possibility than if you were to just weld it like its intended.

The welds transfer the force more effectively as described above, simply based on the geometry of the foot of the slider. Not to mention the strength of a continuous fillet weld all around the foot of the slider is going to be far stronger in tension and shear than the bolts in this application.

/end statics and strength of materials

I have a set, I had them welded on, this is the way they were intended to be installed.

Boom

 

[Bingobelle]

If you are looking at the mounts on the evo slide it is very clear they are supposed to be welded and not bolted. They only have contact surface on the side of the frame. I do not think bolting these on ill be a good idea. When putting a heavy force on them the threads will be ripped out you must make in the frame in order to bolt.


If you really wanted to bolt you should have bought the lod sliders. Ther have much bigger contact surface and also go under the frame, not only on the side. They also use some of the strong bolts that holds the factory skidplates and on top of that use a huge bolt they go through the frame in the front.

The evo ones are clearly constructed to only be welded.

 

[Guascone]

The weld is a more effective means to transfer to force to the frame of the jeep than bolts would be based on their location with respect to the centerline of the leg of slider.

Essentially, as you load the slider (let's say vertically, as though the jeep was coming down on a rock) you are taking this vertical force from the slider rail and transferring it back to the support location (the frame of the jeep)

This vertical force is multiplied by the horizontal distance which it occurs from the support location (length of leg of slider)...creating a moment (aka Torque) at the support location. This moment can be resolved into a force couple (opposing push/pull forces, separated by a distance). The force couple is what you need to resist when you attach the slider to the frame (along with a shear force). That being said, you will decrease the push/pull forces which you are going to have to resist within the force couple by increasing the distance in between the opposing push/pull forces.

In this case the distance from the centerline of the leg of the slider from the top and bottom edge of the foot of the slider is a larger distance than that of the the distance between the centerline of the bolting holes...

Therefore...the bolts will see a larger force in them than the welds when having to resist the same impact force of the jeep coming down vertically on a rock.

Certainly you can design a bolt to resist these forces, but you are also bolting through a thin walled hollow tube-like member (the frame). The forces the bolts will see will be concentrated in shear along the bearing locations of the bolt holes and against the face of the tube against the washers. While I haven't run a number to check the frame member for any localized block shear or wall buckling, it's certainly a higher possibility than if you were to just weld it like its intended.

The welds transfer the force more effectively as described above, simply based on the geometry of the foot of the slider. Not to mention the strength of a continuous fillet weld all around the foot of the slider is going to be far stronger in tension and shear than the bolts in this application.

/end statics and strength of materials

I have a set, I had them welded on, this is the way they were intended to be installed.

Thanks for the very clear explenation!

I'll try to explain better my idea:

I would like to weld on the frame 3 flanges 12mm thick. Each flange will be threaded (3x) M 12x1.25. Doing it in this way I'll avoid to drill the frame and I'll make it stronger and rigid in that area...at the end the sliders will be fixed with 9 bolt M12.

Nothing is already decided. The welding could come back as an option...

 

[Ddays]

It doesn't matter if you weld on mounts to the frame or not. You are still depending on nine m12 bolts to hold close to 3 tons (3000kg) of weight? That is a lot of force coming down hard on those sliders. Someone better at math than I am could probably show what those forces are on each bolt. Bottom line is that bolting is not going to work. They will not be functional at all. .

Look, lets be honest. If you are installing these for looks and not really going to be bashing these off of rocks, then bolting them on would probably work. But if you are going to depend on these to protect your Jeep, either gamble with ignoring your law about welding to the frame or sell these and get the LOD bolt-ons.

 

[A.J.]

You know time after time I think Overlander is such a dick to people. Then time after time they prove him right.

 

[Skid_Kid]

Thanks for the very clear explenation!

I'll try to explain better my idea:

I would like to weld on the frame 3 flanges 12mm thick. Each flange will be threaded (3x) M 12x1.25. Doing it in this way I'll avoid to drill the frame and I'll make it stronger and rigid in that area...at the end the sliders will be fixed with 9 bolt M12.

Nothing is already decided. The welding could come back as an option...

If your welding in these flanges, just weld the sliders to the frame. What difference does it make? Your modifying your frame by welding the flanges.

 

[Guascone]

If your welding in these flanges, just weld the sliders to the frame. What difference does it make? Your modifying your frame by welding the flanges.

The Italian law does not permit to have the slider fixed by welding.
If a needed to weld them I would have to try to have the car approved.

 

[Skid_Kid]

Different ways to assembly the EVO slider

The Italian law does not permit to have the slider fixed by welding.
If a needed to weld them I would have to try to have the car approved.

Isn't your JK going to have to go through a vehicle road worthy test anyways? I would weld them on and see if it passes the test. If it doesn't go from there....

 

[Guascone]

Different ways to assembly the EVO slider

Looking on the web I found this article:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/project-...ject-4runner-backcountry-part-8/photo-02.html

The veichle is a 4runner and maybe his mission is different but it seems that the solution is very similar to what I was asking.

In any case you convinced me to weld them.

 

[scull20]

Different ways to assembly the EVO slider

Thanks for the very clear explenation!

I'll try to explain better my idea:

I would like to weld on the frame 3 flanges 12mm thick. Each flange will be threaded (3x) M 12x1.25. Doing it in this way I'll avoid to drill the frame and I'll make it stronger and rigid in that area...at the end the sliders will be fixed with 9 bolt M12.

Nothing is already decided. The welding could come back as an option...

You'd still have to add some sort of stiffener inside the frame rail to make this a viable option...not to mention you're relying on only the bolts in shear and tension under a significant impact load...are the bolt threads included or excluded in the shear plane?...this makes a big difference. Not to mention there may not be enough meat on the foot of the slider itself between the edge of the hole to the edge of the foot to handle the shear forces induced when the jeep comes down on a rock.

....you could do a PhD dissertation on steel connection design, the fact of the matter is, welding these particular sliders is their intended method for a reason.

 

[OverlanderJK]

The Italian law does not permit to have the slider fixed by welding.
If a needed to weld them I would have to try to have the car approved.

Again, you came here to have people tell you that bolting then on is a good idea. Just bolt them on. You won't listen to anybody here no matter what is said.

 

[Guascone]

You'd still have to add some sort of stiffener inside the frame rail to make this a viable option...not to mention you're relying on only the bolts in shear and tension under a significant impact load...are the bolt threads included or excluded in the shear plane?...this makes a big difference. Not to mention there may not be enough meat on the foot of the slider itself between the edge of the hole to the edge of the foot to handle the shear forces induced when the jeep comes down on a rock.

....you could do a PhD dissertation on steel connection design, the fact of the matter is, welding these particular sliders is their intended method for a reason.

Convinced that the EVO sliders are made to be fixed by welding, in my idea the additional frame stiffenes should be guaranted from the additional flange welded on the frame. That flange, thick 12 mm, would be thraded in order to avoid to transfer to much load directly on the frame ( I think his thikness is 5 mm).

 

[Guascone]

Again, you came here to have people tell you that bolting then on is a good idea. Just bolt them on. You won't listen to anybody here no matter what is said.

Why you are here again if you don't like to read me?
Have you someting interesting to share to the discussion?
It seams that you are able just to tell me that my idea is stupid whitout know even explaining why...

 

[OverlanderJK]

Why you are here again if you don't like to read me?
Have you someting interesting to share to the discussion?
It seams that you are able just to tell me that my idea is stupid whitout know even explaining why...

It was in the tech section. I came to give people technical advice. Since this is no longer a tech thread I went ahead and moved it to the pub and changed your thread title.

Have a nice day.

 

[Guascone]

It was in the tech section. I came to give people technical advice. Since this is no longer a tech thread I went ahead and moved it to the pub and changed your thread title.

Have a nice day.

Again I'm not able to understand why you should offend me...

Have a nice day too

 

[trailraider]

I can't imagine if they won't allow you to weld to the frame , that drilling a bunch of holes in it would be more acceptable.

 

[Speedy_RCW]

Thanks for the very clear explenation!

I'll try to explain better my idea:

I would like to weld on the frame 3 flanges 12mm thick. Each flange will be threaded (3x) M 12x1.25. Doing it in this way I'll avoid to drill the frame and I'll make it stronger and rigid in that area...at the end the sliders will be fixed with 9 bolt M12.

Nothing is already decided. The welding could come back as an option...

I thought the whole idea was to not weld to the frame? Maybe I missed something. But looking at the advice you got and you're repeated refusal to accept that advice, here's my alternate technical solution.

:thumb

 

[metalic]

I thought the whole idea was to not weld to the frame? Maybe I missed something. But looking at the advice you got and you're repeated refusal to accept that advice, here's my alternate technical solution.
View attachment 178786
:thumb

That will never hold. You should try this stuff.

 

[Speedy_RCW]

That will never hold. You should try this stuff.

Hey man, I'm a Stickiness Engineer for Elmers and I'm confident in this approach. :rolls eyes.