This might sound crazy

TonyViv

TonyViv

Member
So, if you look back I have threads over the last year or so dealing with death wobble. You can look back and read the history. I searched and searched, fixed everything that needed to be fixed, all was good for a while and it started back up again.

Long story short, I went back to the shop that fixed it and they said the front end was solid must be a tire problem. Ok Went to another shop.. same thing. These were both long time "chain" type off road shops but I had confidence in the original guy that fixed me up. They had every incentive to sell me more parts as warranties were out and didn't.

Finally had enough and went to a well renowned off road shop here in Phx ( not sure if I can mention names) to check things out. They took their time checked everything, made a few minor tweaks to my caster and toe and came to the conclusion that my front end was solid and my tires were the problem. I had some "wavy" kinda wear to my tires and they feel confident that is the problem. Again they have every opportunity to sell me something but did not and sent me on my way with no charge and asked I just let them know if what they did helped. Other than when it wobbles it has better road manners than it ever has..

The tires are Yokohama geolander AT/S 315/70/17.... Yes they are 5 1/4 years old with 40k on them but they all measure 9-10 32nds(over half tread left) and all have even wear and are wearing the same with constant rotations and balances every 3k miles. what tires go bad with that much tread left... Although in retrospect, I almost feel like the wobbles get better/ worse with rotations... so maybe..

Again from everything I have read, tires cant cause DW, but can instigate it..... but if I have 3 shops plus the countless hours I have laying under with my daughter turning the wheel back and forth... I don't know where else to look
Some days I have no problems/ today it was bad. Sometimes I can hit a big ass bump and nothing, sometimes I can roll over an ant and stuff goes ballistic, no rhyme or reason..

I am going to discount tomorrow to see if there is anything they will/can do. Maybe a road force balance will help, Ill ask
In the long run, I don't think Discount will do much for me. I have a hard time spending 1500 on a new set of real 35s without feeling really confident it will fix my problem.

So does anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Im at the point where I cant let my wife drive my jeep for her safety.

Here is the real crazy part...... Is there another jeeper in the phoenix area on good 35s that might be willing to swap wheels/tires with me for an hour or 2 / day to see if the problem moves with my tires. Ill do all the work..... 1500+ Is a lot of cash and I need to be sure. I especially trust the last shop but I really need to be sure.


Thanks everyone for your help and reading my rant :)

Tony

On the plus side, I put in a new thermostat. That fixed my slow heat and p0128 code..... but why did DC incorporate a 2 dollar thermostat into a 20+$ housing? HMM
I guess that's for another thread........ :)~
 
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Have you tried rotating your tires?

I think you're on the right track- find a local jeeper to see if you can run their tires for a test drive.

But, with 40k miles and nearly 5 years, if it were me I'd get new tires. Even if it doesn't fix the problem, you got new rubber for another 40k/5 years.
 
Visually inspect the track bar brackets really well. Make sure they aren't cracked anywhere and make sure holes aren't allowed out. Also make sure bolts are torqued to 125 lbs. How old are the ball joints and have you checked them for play?
 
After 5 1/4 years of sitting with 40K on them, your rubber will eventually dry out[emoji12]
Seriously though, dry wrought is a thing. My guess is your tires are bad.

Edit-especially if a reputable shop did as WJCO advised.[emoji106]

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Here is an update.....

The jeep shop I went to is pretty well know here in Phx, I only wish I would have gone to them a year ago. With everything they told me I went to discount tire on Friday and explained everything to them. Of course first thing was we can prorate your 5 old tires and give you new ones to the tune of 1300 and some change instead of 1800 and some, which actually isn't bad considering I was at 42k on a 50k warranty tire.
With the amount of tread I still had left I wanted to try to fix it. They road force balanced 4 tires and put them back in the same spots(that I will fix next time getting the spare done).

I will say this fixed 80-90% of the issues. Certain bumps may cause a small quick shimmy in the steering wheel occasionally but at least now I know it is a true tire problem.

The shop didn't like Discounts weird circular rotation that they do, and their reasoning makes great sense to me. So Ill try to save these tires by running them for a bit and doing a normal 4 tire rotation a couple of times ... letting the rears wear and run a straight line for a while before moving them up front......... and if all goes ok Ill introduce the spare into the rotation to the passenger rear(after getting it road force balanced as well).

This is a lesson learned... tires can cause death wobble even if they look to be in great shape
but be fully 100% sure your front end is good, I made mistakes before and thought my front end was good when it wasn't.

Thanks for all your help and advise with all my issues over the last year !!

Tony
 
TonyViv said:
Here is an update.....

The jeep shop I went to is pretty well know here in Phx, I only wish I would have gone to them a year ago. With everything they told me I went to discount tire on Friday and explained everything to them. Of course first thing was we can prorate your 5 old tires and give you new ones to the tune of 1300 and some change instead of 1800 and some, which actually isn't bad considering I was at 42k on a 50k warranty tire.
With the amount of tread I still had left I wanted to try to fix it. They road force balanced 4 tires and put them back in the same spots(that I will fix next time getting the spare done).

I will say this fixed 80-90% of the issues. Certain bumps may cause a small quick shimmy in the steering wheel occasionally but at least now I know it is a true tire problem.

The shop didn't like Discounts weird circular rotation that they do, and their reasoning makes great sense to me. So Ill try to save these tires by running them for a bit and doing a normal 4 tire rotation a couple of times ... letting the rears wear and run a straight line for a while before moving them up front......... and if all goes ok Ill introduce the spare into the rotation to the passenger rear(after getting it road force balanced as well).

This is a lesson learned... tires can cause death wobble even if they look to be in great shape
but be fully 100% sure your front end is good, I made mistakes before and thought my front end was good when it wasn't.

Thanks for all your help and advise with all my issues over the last year !!

Tony
Click to expand...

Actually tires cannot cause death wobble.


Keep going to different shops. It sounds like you’re getting great advice and certainly not tossing money out the window. [emoji849]


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OverlanderJK said:
Actually tires cannot cause death wobble.


Keep going to different shops. It sounds like you’re getting great advice and certainly not tossing money out the window. [emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using WAYALIFE mobile app
Click to expand...
Yepp^^. Even really janky worn tires cannot themselves cause death wobble. If you are determined that it's the tires then by all means keep burning through money but the reality is that something is worn, cracked, or loose underneath your Jeep that is causing your death wobble. And when you find it you're going to slap your hand to your face when it's probably going to be a cheap easy part that threw everything else out of whack, and somehow you and several other shops missed it.

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As overlander said, tires in themselves can not cause death wobble. They can, however, worsen the effects of them. When I had my MTR Kevlars I had the WORST death wobble ever.

Replaced the drag link, tie rod, etc and still had it. When I got my coopers it totally went away, but come to find out I had a bad ball joint causing it all along. I guess for some reason the new tires lessened the effect the bad ball joint had?


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I actually had a similar issue in my 2015 JKU. It wasn't really DW, but just everyday driving on interstate/highway/city my steering wheel would be vibrating and wobbling aggressively similar to DW, not just went I would hit a bump or turn or anything. I knew I had corrected my caster and all that jazz once I put my 3" lift on, but it was happening before and after... I wasn't even 25,000 miles into the tires (or jeep for that matter), but I finally took it to a local shop and talked with them about it and we determined it was the tires. The tread had a wavy pattern that was different across each tire, even after regular tire rotations. This sounds similar to your situation. I used this as an excuse to upgrade to BFG 35" KO2's and everything smoothed itself out. I'm not saying my exact problem is the same as yours, but it seemed to fix my vibration issue. So tires may not CAUSE DW, but they can cause similar feelings such as vibrations and whatnot in the steering components.

Just my $.02 from my experience. Eager to see what the outcome is though.
 
Well maybe it isn't DW but it sure feels like the shit my pants DW I had last year when my ball joints went bad, both times it shook so violently I had to come to a stop to make it quit.

The ball joints and drag link have 10k on them and Ive swapped the track bar with new one for testing with no fix and the tie rod has no play at all.
The shop I went to is very reputable here in PHX, they went over the front end made some tweaks to my alignment and determined everything was good tight and solid and I had a tire problem.. As a bonus they didn't charge me and just asked me to keep them informed when I had the tires checked...... And they like the previous 2 shops that said the front end is good, a tire problem had no reason to bullshit me.... they could have sold me anything, I just wanted it to stop. Before going to the shops I cant even begin to tell you how many hours I had laying underneath watching and feeling around as my daughter and wife moved the wheel back and forth(they were annoyed)

Which is why I asked here if someone could swap tires with me for an hour so I can determine my problem.......
With such a drastic change after the road force balance I can only guess that it is a tire problem.. Im having the same tire wear issues that ^ iron53man is talking about. I think its from DT weird circular rotation they like to do. I have had them balanced and rotated almost monthly just to try to eliminate a tire problem... Ill try working with the tires to possibly rewear them before buying new ones

I guess Ill see where it goes from here
 
your jeep profile shows you're running a 4" procomp lift - stage 1 or stage 2?

either way, do you have a drag link flip or did they also install a drop pitman arm?

did they replace the stock steering stabilizer?

what other extras did they install with the lift?

what you felt at 1st may have been DW, but now what you're describing sounds like bump steer.

The 5 tire rotation discount does will not affect the tires if you do it at regular intervals and not go more than 5000 miles between rotations.

If you have an issue, it will usually start to show on the tire after 5000 miles and continue to get worse if the longer you wait between rotations..

I've been using that rotation on all my BFG's and no issues. Only time I had an issue was when I had a worn lower ball joint and went about 8000 miles before rotating, by then I could see the odd wear beginning.

As for the shops that told you it was something else, I believe that - why would they want to admit they sold you something that wasn't working as promised.
 
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jeeeep said:
your jeep profile shows you're running a 4" procomp lift - stage 1 or stage 2?

Don't know, when I bought the jeep the lift was on it already but shortly after I added adjustable control arms to fix the caster
And a little bit later I installed rancho shocks

either way, do you have a drag link flip or did they also install a drop pitman arm?

About a year after the control arm I got a small wobble in the wheel and always had some bump steer I found a bad drag link so I did a drag link flip, I had shit your pants DW.
Took it to a shop and had C gussets and all ball joints replaced along with a new stabilizer. Everything was great for a while. Nor would I ever use a drop pitman arm.

did they replace the stock steering stabilizer?

yes

what other extras did they install with the lift?

what you felt at 1st may have been DW, but now what you're describing sounds like bump steer.

I described full on shaking of the front and steering wheel that the vehicle needed to be brought to a stop to make it quit......that happened last year with the ball joints and with
the tires? this time
I dealt with bump steer before and completely fixed that with the drag link flip

The 5 tire rotation discount does will not affect the tires if you do it at regular intervals and not go more than 5000 miles between rotations.



I have been doing 1-2000 mile rotations with balances each time.
In my mind it makes sense, instead of swapping tires side to side in a circular rotation..... might be better to let the rears run the same direction for number of miles to keep them
wearing the same and move them to the steer position.

Then why would a road force balance cause such a dramatic positive change to my drivability....
Considering I just had them balanced and rotated 14 days before the trip to the last shop,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then 14 days later with the road force balance, why would 1 tire be off by
over 6 oz (thrown weight??) and the other 3 were off by over 2.5 oz


If you have an issue, it will usually start to show on the tire after 5000 miles and continue to get worse if the longer you wait between rotations..

I've been using that rotation on all my BFG's and no issues. Only time I had an issue was when I had a worn lower ball joint and went about 8000 miles before rotating, by then I could see the odd wear beginning.

As for the shops that told you it was something else, I believe that - why would they want to admit they sold you something that wasn't working as promised

Only one of the 3 shops sold me anything and that was the C gussets and ball joints and by the time I went back to them the labor warranties had expired. So they along with
the next 2 shops they could have offered to sell me anything. Which none did, and all told me it was a tire issue,
Click to expand...
 
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from my own experience,balance weights fall - the clamp on were worse than the stick on. I've lost them within a week of driving.

I only use stick on weights now but also the person doing the job also makes a difference. Some guys do a much better job of prepping the area.

have you checked the track bar bracket at the frame? there are a few posts here where the bracket weld was cracked at the frame. you may have to remove the track bar to get a real good look at the inside of the bracket mount.

If you're 100% confident in the shop that's looked it over I'd start inspecting for cracked welds at the brackets.

Also, what SS are you running? most aftermarket SS are charged and will push or pull, that's one place where the stock SS works better.

I guess anything is possible but for tires to cause DW, there has to be another weak link - they may be the start of it but I'm still skeptical they are the cause.
 
I don't claim to know a damn thing and I appreciate everyone's help. I just got so happy the road for balance made such a significant improvement. Who knows the problems could come back tomorrow. Im just really frustrated, I had an 03 TJ 3 in lift on 33s that I purchased new and wheeled the shit out of and never had a problem, Ive had nothing but on/off drama with my JK.

I completely trust, at least the last shop I went to but Ill get back under again check everything again and be looking at the welds closely. I cant tell you how many hours I have laying under this thing feeling and watching while my daughter and wife rock the steering wheel back and forth.

Thoughts............ Wouldn't you see or feel the bracket flexing if the weld is cracked?
 
Tire rubber actually will get harder the older the tires get. Not saying that will cause full on death wobble, but they can give a rougher ride.

Arizona sun is also hard on rubber. Something to think about. It is hard to change tires that still have a lot of tread left.
 
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