Should We Ban Electric Off-Road Vehicles

JK_0311

Member
That day is already here. California shut down last August or September because of the forest fire danger.

banning utility lines is harsh since we’ve decided as a society that electricity is important for modern survival, but they do present a massive danger. I’m not an electrical engineer, but it seems like there should be a different way of insulating the wires or something to prevent arcing.

Quoting California in your argument doesn’t help your case.

And there are people that live successfully off the grid and we did widespread in American 100 years ago. Heck, visit some tribal lands and see what utilities they live with/without. And I am no electrical engineer either but I can almost bet if there was a way to make them fire proof, it would be required through regulations - 100%.
 

FFPulley77

Hooked
According to their marketing material, yes they intended for this. They put trail rated badges on their jeeps and named the high end model after the Rubicon Trail. Let’s see if they do the same with battery packs. Maybe the FCA engineers will develop a safer system for all the electric vehicles
Then there’s your answer.
 

TahoeBen

New member
Quoting California in your argument doesn’t help your case.
Haha. Touché

Im actually torn on this even though I’m the one presenting the issue. I don’t want someone telling me what to drive, but I also don’t want my house to burn down because some rich dude wants to play with his toy in my backyard. And yeah, with the price of modern Jeeps I’ll generalize about their socioeconomic standings.

Any form of driving presents danger, so let’s hope for the best and use common sense. I’m really curious why a select few Teslas seem to combust on impact and I wonder if the trend will increase as the number of EVs multiple yet the existing batteries degrade. (And that’s another reason ev green marketing is complete bull. Where are all the spent batteries going to go?)
 

TahoeBen

New member
Quoting California in your argument doesn’t help your case.

And there are people that live successfully off the grid and we did widespread in American 100 years ago. Heck, visit some tribal lands and see what utilities they live with/without. And I am no electrical engineer either but I can almost bet if there was a way to make them fire proof, it would be required through regulations - 100%.
I should add a wave and an oorah to you
 

OverlanderJK

Resident Smartass
That day is already here. California shut down last August or September because of the forest fire danger.

banning utility lines is harsh since we’ve decided as a society that electricity is important for modern survival, but they do present a massive danger. I’m not an electrical engineer, but it seems like there should be a different way of insulating the wires or something to prevent arcing.
California shut what down last august or September? The state has been shut down because of our dumbass governor. And the fires out here are from mismanagement of the land.
 

TahoeBen

New member
California in tandem with the forest services closed down access to the national forests and state parks. I believe the rubicon was closed too.
A friend got a $1000 fine for rock climbing near Tahoe Donner and I heard similar stories from people trying to fish north of Truckee
 

OverlanderJK

Resident Smartass
California in tandem with the forest services closed down access to the national forests and state parks. I believe the rubicon was closed too.
A friend got a $1000 fine for rock climbing near Tahoe Donner and I heard similar stories from people trying to fish north of Truckee
That had nothing to do with fires. That had to do with covid. Was closed down long before the fires started.
 

TahoeBen

New member
¯\_()_/¯
 

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jesse3638

Hooked
While I understand your concern about the potential for wildfires in the event of an accident banning or limiting use of certain vehicles is hardly an option. I too am a fireman and have been on many wildfires. I've been on fires up where you live and countless others through out the country. I'd be more concerned with careless campers and hikers than a vehicle on a trail catching fire. Do you realize it's far more likely that a fire would be started by some drunk asshole having a fire during fire restrictions? Or some idiot not extinguishing his camp fire properly and it escaping after they leave? Let's not forget the hippy hikers who feel the need to burn their TP rather than bury it and let it decompose. To be honest I'd be more worried about the huge influx of SxS's on the trail. A lot of those guys have no idea about treading lightly. Every dumbass with Biden bucks burning a hole in their pocket are out buying one and tearing shit up. EV's on the trail would be a far better option that these. The only concern I have with 100% EV's is them running out of juice and getting left out there.
 

jesse3638

Hooked
Also just to add to this. You do realize there are thousands of fires started by electricity every year right? It's called lightening. There are hundreds of fires stared on the Tahoe and El Dorado national forest every summer started by lightening. If your so afraid of your house burning down then move. Your sounding like an entitled asshole. Living where you choose to live comes with that risk. It's a concession you habe to make to enjoy living that way. I fucking can't stand people who think they can live in the forest and have no risk. You pay insurance don't you? Probably higher premiums than other given your location. Let it burn and rebuild.
 

CalSgt

Hooked
Really... Polaris RZR's are constantly burning down, I've witnessed a few myself one in JV and two at Sand Mountain Nevada. Those things go up in flames like old Christmas trees. They burn until nothing is left except the frame, even the engine and transmission cases burn.

I don't hear any cries to ban them & they are 1000% more likely to combust.
 

TahoeBen

New member
Also just to add to this. You do realize there are thousands of fires started by electricity every year right? It's called lightening. There are hundreds of fires stared on the Tahoe and El Dorado national forest every summer started by lightening. If your so afraid of your house burning down then move. Your sounding like an entitled asshole. Living where you choose to live comes with that risk. It's a concession you habe to make to enjoy living that way. I fucking can't stand people who think they can live in the forest and have no risk. You pay insurance don't you? Probably higher premiums than other given your location. Let it burn and rebuild.

Who said I live here and think I have no risks? I bust my ass to be able to live here, worked shitty jobs for years to make ends meet in order to stay in Tahoe. I finally got a breakthrough at a decent job, saved for 5 years, and bought an extremely overpriced home thanks to the VA bill changing lending limits last year, so I think it’s reasonable to want to protect that as much as possible. I have boogie bag packed 3/4 of the year because you never know when it could all go up in smoke.

I have military experience in hazmat but decided not to pursue it as a career post service. I know chemical fires have different risks, burn points, and mitigation requirements but again I’m not an expert.

I’m also not afraid to admit if I’m wrong. I take back a call to Ban EV use off-road, but I strongly feel users should be educated on the risks and have a way to extinguish a fire caused by their battery systems. They also should have enough material on hand to combat the amount of combustible material they are transporting. I hope Jeep, GM, etc are taking this into consideration when designing their vehicles.

I’ve spent a few hours reading about lithium batteries and fire suppression systems. As you can probably verify with your firefighting experience, water isn’t the ideal way to extinguish lithium fires, and a foam or dry chem extinguisher would work best. Water can reduce the heat surrounding the fire, but at high enough temperatures, the H2O can breakdown and cause a negative chemical reaction with the lithium.

I think what’s happening with the Tesla accidents are the accident causes one battery cell to rupture and burst into flame
(say through a physical puncture), that spreads to another, and it expands exponentially. The engineers are filling every empty space with batteries to improve mileage, so when they go, they go out in spectacularly huge fashion. I believe thermal runaway is the term to describe this chain reaction.

I stand by my original concern, however, that these vehicles present a new and unique risk we haven’t experienced before in the off-road community. I’m also going to add a second, larger extinguisher to my Jeep.
 

jesse3638

Hooked
Who said I live here and think I have no risks? I bust my ass to be able to live here, worked shitty jobs for years to make ends meet in order to stay in Tahoe. I finally got a breakthrough at a decent job, saved for 5 years, and bought an extremely overpriced home thanks to the VA bill changing lending limits last year, so I think it’s reasonable to want to protect that as much as possible. I have boogie bag packed 3/4 of the year because you never know when it could all go up in smoke.

I have military experience in hazmat but decided not to pursue it as a career post service. I know chemical fires have different risks, burn points, and mitigation requirements but again I’m not an expert.

I’m also not afraid to admit if I’m wrong. I take back a call to Ban EV use off-road, but I strongly feel users should be educated on the risks and have a way to extinguish a fire caused by their battery systems. They also should have enough material on hand to combat the amount of combustible material they are transporting. I hope Jeep, GM, etc are taking this into consideration when designing their vehicles.

I’ve spent a few hours reading about lithium batteries and fire suppression systems. As you can probably verify with your firefighting experience, water isn’t the ideal way to extinguish lithium fires, and a foam or dry chem extinguisher would work best. Water can reduce the heat surrounding the fire, but at high enough temperatures, the H2O can breakdown and cause a negative chemical reaction with the lithium.

I think what’s happening with the Tesla accidents are the accident causes one battery cell to rupture and burst into flame
(say through a physical puncture), that spreads to another, and it expands exponentially. The engineers are filling every empty space with batteries to improve mileage, so when they go, they go out in spectacularly huge fashion. I believe thermal runaway is the term to describe this chain reaction.

I stand by my original concern, however, that these vehicles present a new and unique risk we haven’t experienced before in the off-road community. I’m also going to add a second, larger extinguisher to my Jeep.
While I respect your concerns for the potential fire hazards an EV may pose, I'd still be far more concerned with who already is utilizing public lands. As for carrying enough fire suppressive material for the fire load were hauling goes. That is just not feasible. While I'd say most of us probably carry a 5lb dry Chem extinguisher or maybe a CO2 extinguisher, that is far from what it would take to extinguish a fully involved vehicle. It's all about being responsible, first and foremost being prepared, making sure your vehicle is mechanically sound, staying on the trail, checking fire conditions, knowing where, when and how, to properly build and extinguish a camp fire. As Overlander mentioned I feel your more likely to be struck by lightening that to have an EV start a catastrophic wildfire.
 

DaJudge

Active Member
The substrate between the positive and negative sides (very simple explanation) in the batteries is actual the fire problem. There is a good documentary on this and a guy who came up with a solution. The problem is it has to be tested and proven. Also, some very big "energy" companies ( think Koch Brothers) own a lot of the "green" technology development and they are constantly lobbying for less regulation. They will probably come up with some safer batteries but it will be a while.

For now the biggest problem for electric off road vehicles is the range. I think we will be coming across a lot more stranded people than fires.
 

kevman65

Hooked
All the other BS aside, I am firmly against banning anything before there is a proven issue.

Gas powered and diesel powered vehicles have also caught fire and burnt to the ground, going to ban them also? No, you're not.
 

Sharkey

Word Ninja
Funny how the actual facts related to this accident and fire (as reported by the actual fire chief) are dramatically different and less inflammatory (see what I did there) than what was reported in the linked article that started this thread. Yet another example in the litany of examples where the media misreports facts and sensationalizes a story as a form of click bait.
 

Storty2

New member
Why though? Of course, everything pre-Tesla is garbage. No doubt about it. But Model 3 is a monster, and I haven't heard about a single case when it was stuck somewhere in the swamp. And cybertruck that is somewhere around the corner. Will pack even more power. Here're comparison of old EVs and Teslas cararac.com/blog/tesla-evs-statistics.html
 
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