Why did the Military stop using Jeeps ?

jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
This one has really baffled me for some time. I remmember growing up and seeing old CJ's CJ5's and probably what really got me into Jeeps (Mash/M38A1). I was told that the payload of the M38A1 left room to be desired and it didn't have much space... ok if anyone here has been in a HMMWV can attest to just how cramped they are inside - you literally have space being eaten up by the powertrain/drivetrain that is totally unusable ... then you jump into payload (2000lbs cited) and wow it can tow a whole 4000lbs it can ford 2.5 ft of water... the specs were probably great at the time. But I do not see how its anything a hopped up military Jeep wouldn't be capable of doing or being retrofited to do. Case in point - the J8 (Jeep JK base) it has higher payload (standard payload) I believe it also has better water fording capabilities, much easier to maintain, cheaper to run, more robust solid axles. What is really the point of the HMMWV other than it being some cash grab for some defense contractors ? Even see'ing them out on the trails they do not seem that spectacular to me at all. Shoot - you cannot even get folks in overseas defense forces to want to purchase a hmmwv most won't let go of their older jeeps and the ones that want newer vehicles end up looking at J8's or something similar. It just seems like a real lack of foresight or I am missing something here. HMMWV's cost a ton more than a military Jeep to build operate/maintain don't really have a payload/capability advantage or any other advantage that a properly spec'd Jeep can achieve or exceed - while the Jeep's have proven to have a higher MTBF, cheaper to build/purchase and operate.... what is the point of the hummer really ?

TLDR:

  1. Hummer is heavy, very cramped inside abysmal payload and towing
  2. Hummer is expensive, hard to maintain and requires more maintenance
  3. Hummer is large and cumbersome has higher MTBF (than military jeeps)
  • Jeep is lighter, actually has more room inside J8 has better payload and towing.
  • Jeep is cheaper to purchase, maintain/operate, easier to repair
  • Jeep is more gooder
 
jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
bobfriesenhahn said:
That is quite a Hummer of a paragraph!

Does anyone really care?
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Was just an observation at work - if you know how much one costs us tax payers and how mediocre they actually are (they do look cool though) i think you would care more - unless you just like someone else setting your money on fire. I added a TLDR.
 
WJCO

WJCO

Meme King
jwolfejt said:
Was just an observation at work - if you know how much one costs us tax payers and how mediocre they actually are (they do look cool though) i think you would care more - unless you just like someone else setting your money on fire. I added a TLDR.
Click to expand...
I don't think the federal government really cares about what it costs or what they use. Someone was probably getting a hummer from Hummer and now here we are.
 
jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
GP NOIR said:
Because Hummers come with a diesel engine, 24 volt system and, most importantly, portal axles.
Click to expand...
Jeeps have had 24V systems since the M38 other solid axle vehicles have had portals since day one - like the Gwagen (also used by foreign militaries). The Jeep J8 also has a diesel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_J8 (basically a modded JKU) - also used by foreign defense agencies. Neither costs over $250,000 (or around $200k unarmored).
 
jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
WJCO said:
I don't think the federal government really cares about what it costs or what they use. Someone was probably getting a hummer from Hummer and now here we are.
Click to expand...
Exactly case in point - was talking with a few folks about this kind of nonsense. Seen one of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Light_Tactical_Vehicle and was like - eh what exactly about this is light it weighs over 5 tons if i recall correctly - it does have decent payload and is decently armored - but its not really light and agile like a recon vehicle is supposed to be anymore - and absolutely will get stuck in the thick mud and will not be able to be pushed by 1 person or even 5 to get unstuck lol. Positives - it does have what is basically a L5P in it. Base price is about $350,000 per unit and I am sure spec'd out will push closer to $500k per unit...

Why you should care ? Your tax dollars. If you like keeping your hard earned money and spending it as you see fit - you probably should care about wasteful government spending.
 
NPC 6060⁸42

NPC 6060⁸42

Active Member
jwolfejt said:
This one has really baffled me for some time. I remmember growing up and seeing old CJ's CJ5's and probably what really got me into Jeeps (Mash/M38A1). I was told that the payload of the M38A1 left room to be desired and it didn't have much space... ok if anyone here has been in a HMMWV can attest to just how cramped they are inside - you literally have space being eaten up by the powertrain/drivetrain that is totally unusable ... then you jump into payload (2000lbs cited) and wow it can tow a whole 4000lbs it can ford 2.5 ft of water... the specs were probably great at the time. But I do not see how its anything a hopped up military Jeep wouldn't be capable of doing or being retrofited to do. Case in point - the J8 (Jeep JK base) it has higher payload (standard payload) I believe it also has better water fording capabilities, much easier to maintain, cheaper to run, more robust solid axles. What is really the point of the HMMWV other than it being some cash grab for some defense contractors ? Even see'ing them out on the trails they do not seem that spectacular to me at all. Shoot - you cannot even get folks in overseas defense forces to want to purchase a hmmwv most won't let go of their older jeeps and the ones that want newer vehicles end up looking at J8's or something similar. It just seems like a real lack of foresight or I am missing something here. HMMWV's cost a ton more than a military Jeep to build operate/maintain don't really have a payload/capability advantage or any other advantage that a properly spec'd Jeep can achieve or exceed - while the Jeep's have proven to have a higher MTBF, cheaper to build/purchase and operate.... what is the point of the hummer really ?

TLDR:

  1. Hummer is heavy, very cramped inside abysmal payload and towing
  2. Hummer is expensive, hard to maintain and requires more maintenance
  3. Hummer is large and cumbersome has higher MTBF (than military jeeps)
  • Jeep is lighter, actually has more room inside J8 has better payload and towing.
  • Jeep is cheaper to purchase, maintain/operate, easier to repair
  • Jeep is more gooder
Click to expand...
It’s quite simple really. They (Hummer) provided the best hookers and bribes to the politicians looking at procurement. Pretty much how .mil is always bought which is why when somebody advertises milspec vets cringe.
 
GP NOIR

GP NOIR

Hooked
jwolfejt said:
Jeeps have had 24V systems since the M38 other solid axle vehicles have had portals since day one - like the Gwagen (also used by foreign militaries). The Jeep J8 also has a diesel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_J8 (basically a modded JKU) - also used by foreign defense agencies. Neither costs over $250,000 (or around $200k unarmored).
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Ah, but the Jeep doesn't have all three.

The truth is, to do what the Big Army wanted, the Jeep would have needed to be re-designed in such a way as to be useless for the way us slobvilians use them. Hummers are ok for convoy use, but fare poorly for technical obstacles.
 
jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
NPC 6060⁸42 said:
It’s quite simple really. They (Hummer) provided the best hookers and bribes to the politicians looking at procurement. Pretty much how .mil is always bought which is why when somebody advertises milspec vets cringe.
Click to expand...
ahh yes - i don't get what folks like about milspec so much it really is just "bottom bidder" stuff. To me the hummer just makes absolutely no logical sense. A slight bigger jeep would have did everything hte hummer does and costed way less upfront and the upkeep.
 
bobfriesenhahn

bobfriesenhahn

Hooked
jwolfejt said:
Was just an observation at work - if you know how much one costs us tax payers and how mediocre they actually are (they do look cool though) i think you would care more - unless you just like someone else setting your money on fire. I added a TLDR.
Click to expand...
I expect it costs the tax payers a million dollars a piece. At least that is how much it would cost if most of the cost was not just added to the national debt.
 
bobfriesenhahn

bobfriesenhahn

Hooked
jwolfejt said:
Exactly case in point - was talking with a few folks about this kind of nonsense. Seen one of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Light_Tactical_Vehicle and was like - eh what exactly about this is light it weighs over 5 tons if i recall correctly - it does have decent payload and is decently armored - but its not really light and agile like a recon vehicle is supposed to be anymore - and absolutely will get stuck in the thick mud and will not be able to be pushed by 1 person or even 5 to get unstuck lol. Positives - it does have what is basically a L5P in it. Base price is about $350,000 per unit and I am sure spec'd out will push closer to $500k per unit...

Why you should care ? Your tax dollars. If you like keeping your hard earned money and spending it as you see fit - you probably should care about wasteful government spending.
Click to expand...
If any of us really cared so much about wasteful government spending, then we would have died from a heart attack already.

Every asset the government buys needs an associated support system (people, helicopters, ships, fuel, health insurance, spare parts, etc.) which likely costs 20x what the asset cost.
 
R

RustyNance

Member
How many fully enclosed army jeeps have you seen? Couple that with abysmal safety record of the old Army Jeep and the military just wanted something newer and bigger. The CUV-V (Blazer and Pickup) filled the gap until something could be developed.
I love the old Army Jeeps, but there is a reason they didn’t sell many surplus to civilians.
 
jwolfejt

jwolfejt

Caught the Bug
RustyNance said:
Ever seen a Hummer roll over? It can happen, but exceedingly rare.
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Fair enough - you can pretty much toss the keys to a hummer to anyone and they will figure it out with little to no instruction and if they don't - they won't be flipping it. Was that really worth a 1/4 million dollars though ? Then again the M151 is what I thought earned that reputation the M38's weren't really known to just roll over unless you were doing something very stupid.
 
Ddays

Ddays

Hooked
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