LOVE IT or HATE IT? JEEP's New Slogan - “Zero Emission Freedom”

[wayoflife]

So, here’s a thought. Being that much of our highways and infrastructure is paid for by gas taxes, what will become of them if everyone is required to drive electric vehicles?

 

[WJCO]

So, here’s a thought. Being that much of our highways and infrastructure is paid for by gas taxes, what will become of them if everyone is required to drive electric vehicles?

We'll get all that money back I'm sure

 

[Primo82]

So, here’s a thought. Being that much of our highways and infrastructure is paid for by gas taxes, what will become of them if everyone is required to drive electric vehicles?

In Indiana my wife's hybrid registration costs 3x what my ICE costs. Don't underestimate a governments ability to find ways to get our money... Granted none of the fucking money goes to roads here in Indiana. They are terrible...

 

[wayoflife]

In Indiana my wife's hybrid registration costs 3x what my ICE costs. Don't underestimate a governments ability to find ways to get our money... Granted none of the fucking money goes to roads here in Indiana. They are terrible...

Just so that we're all on the same page, registration is essentially a luxury tax. Newer cars and or more expensive cars will cost more. Has nothing to do with highways or how they're paid for.

 

[Primo82]

Just so that we're all on the same page, registration is essentially a luxury tax. Newer cars and or more expensive cars will cost more. Has nothing to do with highways or how they're paid for.

Yes it is, but that isn't what drove the 3x difference in registration cost. Her vehicle was slightly more than my jeep (maybe 4k but can't remember). Both were bought new, hers is a year older. When she asked why her registration was so high they told her it was a hybrid/EV tax they attach since 'they don't use gas (as much gas).'

 

[wayoflife]

Yes it is, but that isn't what drove the 3x difference in registration cost. Her vehicle was slightly more than my jeep (maybe 4k but can't remember). Both were bought new, hers is a year older. When she asked why her registration was so high they told her it was a hybrid/EV tax they attach since 'they don't use gas (as much gas).'

Okay, I don't know anything about Indiana registration fees. That being said, how much of a federal tax credit did you get on the car? A 4xe will get you $7500. Was your registration more than that?

Also, I just looked and your state does give additional tax incentives for businesses that use vehicles that run on green energy.

 

[BlueRubicon]

China leadership just went into a circle jerk to congratulate each other over the control of all future EV production since they control the precious minerals required for batteries.
America is on its way to being 2nd .....
RIP Jeep

No disrespect, but China does not control the metals required. They are though...part of the problem.
In my business I have to pay attention to commodities. This year has been insane! I run reports daily. One of biggest problem with the 'green' thing and electric cars, is that it is depleting the worlds copper. I never hear or read anyone bringing this up. Copper has been doing steady climb since last year in cost. June 30th it finally dipped, and is predicted to remain static until end of last quarter.
It will however go back up. Economists, mining industry all saying if world keeps it's course, copper will be depleted by 2024. Now, I am not naive and do not believe everything I read...but where smoke is fire.
Research the downside effects of mining. No one mentioning that!
Other downside, is where are all the batteries going to go when failed?
How is our infrastucture or lack of, going to support vehicles needed to be recharged?
Can the electrical grid handle it? Our electrical infrastructure in this country is antiquated.
And Eddie...I hate the new slogan.

 

[Primo82]

Okay, I don't know anything about Indiana registration fees. That being said, how much of a federal tax credit did you get on the car? A 4xe will get you $7500. Was your registration more than that?

Also, I just looked and your state does give additional tax incentives for businesses that use vehicles that run on green energy.

I'm assuming she got a tax credit on it but I don't know how much it was. I also think that's a little bit of a different conversation, infrastructure tax on gas vs incentive for green vehicles. And this is her personal vehicle, so not sure why a business incentive would be involved.

I paid ~$250 in registration fees for my vehicle last year. And put on just shy of 11k miles. That's roughly 700 gals of gas (16 mpg). And $210 in gas tax (at Indiana's $.30 tax rate). So my total contribution to Indiana's 'Infrastructure' was ~$460 (granted my roads look like shit so it is not being used for infrastructure, also another complaint).

My wifes registration was over $700 last year. And she has a hybrid and drives a stupid amount so I'm assuming she paid a couple hundred dollars in gas tax.

So yes, at least in IN hybrid/EV drivers contribute to 'Infrastructure'. And if you're worried about the incentive it looks like she'll pay back that federal money in well under 15 years with that difference in registration and gas tax contributions in our special case... This may not be the case everywhere, but it can be done.

 

[wayoflife]

I'm assuming she got a tax credit on it but I don't know how much it was. I also think that's a little bit of a different conversation, infrastructure tax on gas vs incentive for green vehicles. And this is her personal vehicle, so not sure why a business incentive would be involved.

I paid ~$250 in registration fees for my vehicle last year. And put on just shy of 11k miles. That's roughly 700 gals of gas (16 mpg). And $210 in gas tax (at Indiana's $.30 tax rate). So my total contribution to Indiana's 'Infrastructure' was ~$460 (granted my roads look like shit so it is not being used for infrastructure, also another complaint).

My wifes registration was over $700 last year. And she has a hybrid and drives a stupid amount so I'm assuming she paid a couple hundred dollars in gas tax.

So yes, at least in IN hybrid/EV drivers contribute to 'Infrastructure'. And if you're worried about the incentive it looks like she'll pay back that federal money in well under 15 years with that difference in registration and gas tax contributions in our special case... This may not be the case everywhere, but it can be done.

Well, the tax credit is there. You haven't said what kind of car she has so I can only assume that she probably got the $7500. The business bit was just a footnote to say that your state does help to provide incentives for green vehicles too, that's it.

Your registration fees are awesomely low. Congrats to you! And, if your fees go toward infrastructure, more power to you and your state. Unfortunately, this is NOT the case in most states. MOST states like California and like use gas taxes and their roads are shit.

With that said, I should clarify myself and say that I don't like the idea of any new taxes, even on electric cars.

 

[Primo82]

Well, the tax credit is there. You haven't said what kind of car she has so I can only assume that she probably got the $7500. The business bit was just a footnote to say that your state does help to provide incentives for green vehicles too, that's it.

Your registration fees are awesomely low. Congrats to you! And, if your fees go toward infrastructure, more power to you and your state. Unfortunately, this is NOT the case in most states. MOST states like California and like use gas taxes and their roads are shit.

With that said, I should clarify myself and say that I don't like the idea of any new taxes, even on electric cars.

It's a Toyota Highlander, not sure what trim level but it is nothing special. Wasn't trying to hide it but wasn't trying to compare a jeep to a porsche SUV or anything. And yes there was a tax credit, and I think it was $7500 at the time but I wasn't privy. The final price was still a few K over my sahara.

I completely agree with you on taxes. She and I pay a lot every year and government always seems to want more... Back in the 1990's Indiana instituted a wheel tax to pay for road upkeep. After years of those funds being diverted to who knows what we get an Indiana gas tax. (maybe I have that backwards and it was a gas tax first then they added a wheel tax). Anyways, now the gas tax isn't being used for roads as far as I can see. I'm sure they're looking for additional ways to remove my money from my wallet for their pet bullshit... It pisses me off.

And I'm not trying to argue at all my man. Just giving my perspective. There are a tone of issues to having a greener world. Most of them are of a magnitude I don't think our generation has seen before. But something needs to be done unless you want your Arizona summers hitting 140 degrees of dry heat. I know I don't want 110 degrees of wet heat in Indiana...

 

[BlueRubicon]

It's a Toyota Highlander, not sure what trim level but it is nothing special. Wasn't trying to hide it but wasn't trying to compare a jeep to a porsche SUV or anything. And yes there was a tax credit, and I think it was $7500 at the time but I wasn't privy. The final price was still a few K over my sahara.

I completely agree with you on taxes. She and I pay a lot every year and government always seems to want more... Back in the 1990's Indiana instituted a wheel tax to pay for road upkeep. After years of those funds being diverted to who knows what we get an Indiana gas tax. (maybe I have that backwards and it was a gas tax first then they added a wheel tax). Anyways, now the gas tax isn't being used for roads as far as I can see. I'm sure they're looking for additional ways to remove my money from my wallet for their pet bullshit... It pisses me off.

And I'm not trying to argue at all my man. Just giving my perspective. There are a tone of issues to having a greener world. Most of them are of a magnitude I don't think our generation has seen before. But something needs to be done unless you want your Arizona summers hitting 140 degrees of dry heat. I know I don't want 110 degrees of wet heat in Indiana...

I know for one thing...when driving across country countless times, Indiana was always the highest price gas in between Pa and Ca. I would always plan to fill up right before Indiana and drive strait thru

 

[jeeeep]

No disrespect, but China does not control the metals required. They are though...part of the problem.
In my business I have to pay attention to commodities. This year has been insane! I run reports daily. One of biggest problem with the 'green' thing and electric cars, is that it is depleting the worlds copper. I never hear or read anyone bringing this up. Copper has been doing steady climb since last year in cost. June 30th it finally dipped, and is predicted to remain static until end of last quarter.
It will however go back up. Economists, mining industry all saying if world keeps it's course, copper will be depleted by 2024. Now, I am not naive and do not believe everything I read...but where smoke is fire.
Research the downside effects of mining. No one mentioning that!
Other downside, is where are all the batteries going to go when failed?
How is our infrastucture or lack of, going to support vehicles needed to be recharged?
Can the electrical grid handle it? Our electrical infrastructure in this country is antiquated.
And Eddie...I hate the new slogan.

I get they don't actually control the metals, but I say that with the idea that China is willing to look the other way in the what it takes to mine what they have and refine the world's raw materials, in that respect they are a controlling factor.
IMO all nations seem to share one refining mindset - "i'm green so not in my backyard but.... hey china...."
all the other points you make I ask of every "green" spouting voice... charging, mining, recycling... usually always a blank stare or "technology will figure it out" but they've come this far and??
There's a pile of windmills that I estimate were at their 15yr mark when they were replaced, that pile is still there 3 years later. I would think if it was easily recyclable materials they would've been gone by now but what do I know ...
I do like the charging stations driven by large diesel generators doh!

 

[bobfriesenhahn]

So, here’s a thought. Being that much of our highways and infrastructure is paid for by gas taxes, what will become of them if everyone is required to drive electric vehicles?

Each vehicle will have a identity chip in it and each mile marker will have an electronic sensor to detect the id of the chip. Then taxes will be levied based on how many mile markers you have passed. The only things you can not escape are death and taxes.

 

[Primo82]

I get they don't actually control the metals, but I say that with the idea that China is willing to look the other way in the what it takes to mine what they have and refine the world's raw materials, in that respect they are a controlling factor.
IMO all nations seem to share one refining mindset - "i'm green so not in my backyard but.... hey china...."
all the other points you make I ask of every "green" spouting voice... charging, mining, recycling... usually always a blank stare or "technology will figure it out" but they've come this far and??
There's a pile of windmills that I estimate were at their 15yr mark when they were replaced, that pile is still there 3 years later. I would think if it was easily recyclable materials they would've been gone by now but what do I know ...
I do like the charging stations driven by large diesel generators doh!

I agree a lot of countries are fine if the pollution isn't in their back yards. There are more environmentally friendly ways to extract Li from minerals, but it'll make the Li cost more. I would argue here. It's MUCH easier to control liquid environmental hazard than a gaseous one... And it's even easier to control a solid contaminate (if they'd evaporate or reclaim the water from their slurry and discharge the minerals that remain).

 

[Primo82]

Each vehicle will have a identity chip in it and each mile marker will have an electronic sensor to detect the id of the chip. Then taxes will be levied based on how many mile markers you have passed. The only things you can not escape are death and taxes.

Ahh hell no they ain't tracking me! They could mandate that you have to show mileage during registration (or if your state certifies vehicles and charge then) maybe? I don't know, I still feel like there's a million ways to skin the cat.

 

[BlueRubicon]

I get they don't actually control the metals, but I say that with the idea that China is willing to look the other way in the what it takes to mine what they have and refine the world's raw materials, in that respect they are a controlling factor.
IMO all nations seem to share one refining mindset - "i'm green so not in my backyard but.... hey china...."
all the other points you make I ask of every "green" spouting voice... charging, mining, recycling... usually always a blank stare or "technology will figure it out" but they've come this far and??
There's a pile of windmills that I estimate were at their 15yr mark when they were replaced, that pile is still there 3 years later. I would think if it was easily recyclable materials they would've been gone by now but what do I know ...
I do like the charging stations driven by large diesel generators doh!

China isn't doing the mining. Chile mines most copper. And biggest mining companies are not Chinese. That being said...China is building at a rate not seen since the US after WW11, even greater. So they do account for roughly 40% of use.

 

[wayoflife]

And I'm not trying to argue at all my man. Just giving my perspective. There are a tone of issues to having a greener world. Most of them are of a magnitude I don't think our generation has seen before. But something needs to be done unless you want your Arizona summers hitting 140 degrees of dry heat. I know I don't want 110 degrees of wet heat in Indiana...

LOL - nor am I. Just giving my perspective as well. You are a believer and I'm just skeptical about our need for a "green world". At least, it's getting harder and harder for me to believe in the "science" being crammed down my throat these days. When nobody can question it, it's just propaganda or worse, a religion. And even if it's all true, I personally feel that America already does a pretty stand up job and have a hard time believing that a Jeep that has a 20 battery range is going to make much if any difference. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Primo82]

LOL - nor am I. Just giving my perspective as well. You are a believer and I'm just skeptical about our need for a "green world". At least, it's getting harder and harder for me to believe in the "science" being crammed down my throat these days. When nobody can question it, it's just propaganda or worse, a religion. And even if it's all true, I personally feel that America already does a pretty stand up job and have a hard time believing that a Jeep that has a 20 battery range is going to make much if any difference. But hey, that's just me.

Yea I agree these light hybrids don't really do shit to move the bar. And ultimately I agree the state actors (china) and big business will need to make curbs before the shit that we do will really make any difference whatsoever.

I also spent my undergrad in a physics lab prototyping pieces of a high energy physics particle detector system. So I'm familiar with the sciences you can't see but you can study... While not climate science, I understand the scientific method and rigor that goes into science in general. And as far as observational data, I remember living in northern Indiana in the 80's. We pretty much had snow on the ground from Nov-Mar. In the 90's we started getting the nice warm ~50 degree days where we could go out and play with our xmas toys. Now they pretty much get a dusting that melts the next day (minus the shit that hit us this Feb).

And I kind of look at it and say whats the worst that can happen if climate science is right? What's the worst that can happen if it is wrong? What is the worst outcome of either situation? Maybe we should hedge our bets against that outcome.

Anyways, not going to change any minds here and not looking to. Cheers!

 

[wayoflife]

Yea I agree these light hybrids don't really do shit to move the bar. And ultimately I agree the state actors (china) and big business will need to make curbs before the shit that we do will really make any difference whatsoever.

I also spent my undergrad in a physics lab prototyping pieces of a high energy physics particle detector system. So I'm familiar with the sciences you can't see but you can study... While not climate science, I understand the scientific method and rigor that goes into science in general. And as far as observational data, I remember living in northern Indiana in the 80's. We pretty much had snow on the ground from Nov-Mar. In the 90's we started getting the nice warm ~50 degree days where we could go out and play with our xmas toys. Now they pretty much get a dusting that melts the next day (minus the shit that hit us this Feb).

And I kind of look at it and say whats the worst that can happen if climate science is right? What's the worst that can happen if it is wrong? What is the worst outcome of either situation? Maybe we should hedge our bets against that outcome.

Anyways, not going to change any minds here and not looking to. Cheers!

LOL - Like I said, you're a believer and I am skeptical. The examples you've given help you to have faith but for me, they ring hollow. I don't know how old you are but there was a time not so long ago where the big buzz was "global cooling". When that didn't work out, it became "global warming" and when that started having problems fitting the narrative, it got changed to "climate change."

And, "IF the climate science is right" sounds about as scientific as saying, "IF the bible is right" or at least, to me anyway.

Of course, NONE of this will change the fact that "electrified" Jeeps with a pitiful 20 mile range will = "zero emission freedom". That new slogan IS the whole point of this thread.

 

[PocketsEmptied]

So, here’s a thought. Being that much of our highways and infrastructure is paid for by gas taxes, what will become of them if everyone is required to drive electric vehicles?

From a yearly $3.5 gazillion "infrastructure" bill being passed under the cover of reconciliation of course....